1. What is politics?

Resources

ShiShi Rose - Instagram Linktree

Sonya Renee Taylor - Instagram Linktree

Peggy McIntosh - Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack

New York Times - How to Participate in Politics

Samara Centre for Democracy - Politics is an Everyday Endeavour

Transcript

Phuong: At the core of what politics is is who has the power, who has the decision to tell other people what to do. And as you [Lapis] said, the reason why race [theme music starts] is inherently political is because in a hierarchy of things those with darker skin, those who aren’t straight, are not given that power to decide for themselves. Let alone have the power to decide for other people what life they should lead. 

Lapis: Mhm. In many ways, politics is about who has a voice. 

[Theme music plays in the background] 

P: Welcome to The Rising Roses! 

L: A podcast that deconstructs concepts and reconstructs stories. 

P: We are your hosts --- Phuong 

L: and Lapis! 

[Theme music ends] 

[Recording beep] 

P: What is politics? Okay, I think oftentimes we think that politics is something very far away,, something only people with a lot of training or a lot of schooling,or a lot of, you know like, expertise can participate in. But the reality is politics affects our everyday life, our everyday structure and it controls everything that we do, right? [L: Mmhmm.] From like, the way that we purchase groceries, or the way that we drive, it’s in our everyday life. 

L: I would definitely agree with that point. And although it sounds like, rather overwhelming to say, I think that politics is everything. Not that everything that you think or feel necessarily has to be about politics. But that everything in your life is in some way impacted by politics or is political. The clothes you wear, the food you eat, how you get to work, what that job is. All of these things are impacted by the political and economic systems we live in. 

P: Yeah, completely. I think something too to breakdown is -- there are certainly things that should not be political, and things that should be seemingly very intuitive and straightforward -- but is made political because of the fact that we live in a state society. The fact that we acknowledge there is an overall governing power above us, and that there is a central authority -- that means that everything that they dictate and do is going to flow down towards other aspects of your life. Even if it’s small. 

P: For example, a little girl selling lemonade outside her lawn. In a world that’s completely apolitical, you're like “Oh this is so great. There's a little girl that's selling lemonade or water that’s raising funds for something,” right? But in a world that’s influenced by politics somebody could technically say “Well she didn’t formally ask for a permit to sell this lemonade or water, so what’s she’s doing--  [L: Where’s her license?]

P: Yeah so what she's doing is actually bad right? And like, how is this related to politics? Because the existence of a permit system or a piece of paper that allows you to do something, again, is created by a law, is created by legislation. And in and of effect, that legislation must have been created by somebody, and that somebody was a politician, right? So if you trace back all of those little actions, it all leads back to: Somebody dictated whether or not you could or couldn't do something. 

P: And you as an individual either choose to accept that and say “Yes, I accept this authority,  I accept this person's conception of what I'm allowed and not allowed to do.” Or you reject that and you say “No, even though you know, what I'm doing is illegal, I think that I should have the right to do this.” So I think that that’s something, that is like, very lost upon people. 

L: Well I'd like to add on that, something else of note is: Why does the little girl need to raise money in the first place? 

P: That too. 

L: And oftentimes, it could be something kind of cute like “Oh I want to get a new dress”  [P: Sure] or  “Oh I want to get a gift for my friend”. But oftentimes the underlying reason behind some of these heartwarming stories we see  in the media is not very heartwarming at all. It’s “Oh, well, I need to raise money so I can pay for school ”, or “I need to raise money so I can pay for lunch or school supplies.” [P: Yes]  And then you have to interrogate : Well is it actually heartwarming that this little girl is being so enterprising? Or is it really kind of sad that we are making people as young as six or seven go into the workplace and earn things that really should just be a right to begin with? 

L: And as you said, someone might stay “Well she doesn’t have a license to sell this”. But if that  person decides to call the police, whether they decide to intervene could depend a lot on what the little girl looks like [P: For sure]. What is the colour of her skin? What is her immigration status? What is your class status? All of these things will affect how this little girl is perceived by others as she goes through, you know,  something as simple and innocuous as setting up a lemonade stand. 

P: Yeah, and  to break it down even further,  I think at the end of the day,  what politics means to me, is it means the power that is exerted over groups of other people by another group. And even though there's many ways to stratify it in social science -- you could stratify it by class, you can stratify it by race, by gender. But politics is I think, the overall umbrella describing the phenomenon of human beings ascribing authority or power to another group of human beings and legitimizing that through, like, many different forms. Whether it's cultural, whether it’s -- that to me is the core of what politics is.  Is, who has the power? Who has the decision to tell other people what to do? [L: Mmhmm] Who has that decision? 

P: And as you said, the reason why race, or sex, like, gender issues is inherently political is because -- in a hierarchy of things those with darker skin, those who aren’t straight, or who are trans, are not given that power to decide for themselves. [transition music] you know, let alone have the power to decide for other people -- 

L: Mmhmm, politics is about who has a voice. 

P: -- what life they should lead. 

[Transition music continues for a couple of seconds]

P: It's something you take for granted, right? The fact that you have a power to voice your opinions to voice your thoughts,  to not constantly be questioned right? It’s not perceived as a privilege. It’s perceived as a norm everyone should have. Because in an ideal world, that is the norm that everyone would have. But because we don’t live in that world -- those who do have the ability to step back from politics, to not pay attention to who has power, who doesn’t have it, to not pay attention to their surroundings when they see authority figures -- those are the people that can afford to remain apolitical. Even though “apolitical” can’t exist in the world that is governed by politics. So the choice to step back, the choice to say, well I don’t let politics influence my life,  is the willfully ignorant choice to make when other people are suffering because of politics. Even if you are not directly touched by it , even if you are not directly affected by it, even just the act of not seeing it and being blind to that around you enables those who abuse their power and who abuse their position over others to continue doing so. 

L: I agree and disagree. I will say that I used to say “I used to believe that the only people who could be apolitical were those who were privileged or in some way benefited from the status quo” and they can be like “Well, you know, I throw my hands in the air, all of this politics stuff, it seems so hard and uncomfortable, why can't we just live our everyday lives and not question why these things are in place. It's not so bad you know, just stop complaining it's not so bad [P: Right]  But then, you know, while I was campaigning for NDP politician who later went on to win her seat in centretown Ottawa, I was campaigning in this -- I guess you call it public housing -- where you know these are people who are living on welfare [P: Right] or otherwise very economically marginalized,  on a lot of them expressed a huge amount of skepticism towards anything to do with politics, anything to do with it [P: For sure]. And I feel like one of the ways that these people in power win, is they get people to be apolitical if they are on the bottom of the social ladder. 

L: So there is two kind of competing social phenomenon of the apoliticalness of the elite and the privileged and the apoliticism of the disfranchised [P: A hundred percent]. And I think they have two very different motivations. The apoliticism of the elite is “I like things the way they are, I’m not interested in changing anything, all of this talk of change is scary to me because it threatens something that I have. And the apoliticism of the disenfranchised is “I tried to have a voice and I saw the people I vote for betray me again and again. I don't know how else to change things in my community. I'm just so tired of the way things are, I give up. I throw my hands in the air, there's nothing I can do, I’m just powerless.”  

P: You’re absolutely right. Institutionally speaking, you know, participating in politics when you’ve seen representatives promise, give lip service in and out and not have it done -- I completely understand why those people would not want to participate.  

L: I think that part of our hope with this podcast is to give people who have been disenfranchised new ways to participate in the system [P: Yeah one hundred percent]. 

L: If you feel that voting isn't working for you, well look at the protests in America. Already we've seen a massive amount of change. Police departments across America have been getting defunded. We've seen people who were going to escape scot-free from their actions get fired, convicted, and jailed until their court sentences. You know a lot of these people probably have never voted in their lives but they still affected that change by putting their bodies and by putting their will against -- they saw a problem in their community and they spoke out, and they marched and as a result -- you know, look what we have here today. 

P: For sure I think that it's not just the act of even protesting or marching, it's people who decide to use their businesses or small businesses that make food for example, to fuel people on the frontlines right? Or people who have medical skills who put themselves out there to try and help any protesters who got hurt. Like, you know all these things that were done out of a willingness to help those around them instead of the kind of negotiation that happens in the institutional realm of politics. I fully a hundred percent believe that people who go into politics with good intentions, with the hope that they can change certain parts of the system to make it better for those around them -- like I absolutely a hundred believe that that’s true. The reality is, regardless of your intention, when you enter an institution, you have to play by those rules. You have to play by these [L: Mm hmm] you know, because that’s the definition of an institution -- it has limitations, it has regulations right? [L: Yes]. So, there’s pros and cons with that of course, as with anything else. But one of the largest cons is that the action doesn't happen as fast. Because you have to go through so many different like, organizations and bureaucracies and red tape. You have to dot your Is and cross your Ts before you can truly get authorization to do something. 

P: Versus ,when you, of your own accord, just reach out to your community members and say “Hey, if you need something I’m here for you”, that creates an alternative system that is still somewhat political because it’s in opposition to something else. It’s in opposition to the current system that forces you go through all these things [L: Yes]. I really would want people to expand their definition of what political means, what it means to be a political person, what it means to pay attention to politics, because community is a form of politic as well --- [L: Yes] -- it is a form of organizing the way you live and structuring the kind of authority you defer to and the resources that you pull from. I absolutely think that people who, again, don’t participate maybe in mainstream electoral politics can develop a politic of their own. 

L: I think there is some validity to engaging with the electoral process. I think that people say “Oh nothing changes if you vote”. I look at history and I’m like, that’s not entirely true, you do  have to like, close your eyes to a lot of things if you want to pretend that. However, the bigger systemic changes require lots of grassroots pressure and if you don't want to engage in the electoral process -- well if you’re still willing to be there for that grassroots pressure I'm still a happy person. 

P: Yeah I completely agree with you. And there needs to be at some points both right? [L: Yes] To get the amount of pressure you need, you need pressure from both the bottom and from the top [L: Mmhm] to kind of squeeze out you know, the kind of thing that you need. The reason why I really am a proponent of pushing from the ground up is because, for a long time, pushing from the ground up was not seen as legitimate or was not seen as effective right? People were encouraged to go through university to become a lawyer, become a politician, go towards the upper echelons so that things can start trickling down right? But we see, we see that that takes time. It takes time and money to go through university, it takes time and money to ascend the ranks in the system. And what you lose is time. What you lose is time. 

P: And [L: Mmhmm] it took me so long to kind of break free from that mindset because growing up, as a first generation Vietnamese immigrant, education was stressed and it was seen as the key to enlightenment and success. And even though I value education, I still do. I still think there’s value --  I still want people to be able to access university, I want people to be able to access like quality -- not even just postsecondary -- but secondary and elementary school. I completely think that education as an institution is important. But -- but the emphasis and the value on attaining that level of education kind of negated the fact that in the time it took for me to get my Bachelor's, or to get my Master's, to get my PhD, people are still dying out there. People are still not being fed. Water is still not being sent to communities. [Transition music starts] So why do I have to wait right? Like, I can educate myself while acting at the same time!

[Transition music continues for a few seconds]

P: Let’s talk about the intention of our podcast. What is it that we want people to take away? What is it we want people to learn?

L: I guess one lesson I want people to learn is that you don't just have to accept things the way they are. You don't just have to deal with the problems you see in society, you don't just have to say “Well these are inevitable there's nothing we can do about them.” You do have the power to make change if you work with other people, you do have the power to improve yourself and improve your community if you take the time to learn. It's not inevitable that this sort of suffering continues in the world. Slavery --  did-- do you think anyone thought 200 years ago that slavery was ever going to be a thing of the past? You think people 300 years ago ever thought they'd be able to get rid of absolute monarchy and the divine right of kings and the feudal nobility? No! [laughs] they thought it was just inevitable. But they did get rid of it, and we can get rid of the problems we see in our world as well. They are not inevitable, they are not --  they are not undefeatable. They are not something that we can’t stop if we try-- if we make voices heard, if we organize, if we educate ourselves, if we strive for a better tomorrow. 

P: I completely agree that was really beautiful. And it really spoke to me in so many ways what you said about how we just are taught to accept things the way they are and how things really aren’t inevitable, and how things are always changing. And we as human beings created the world that we see -- we can create a new one. We can change it because we were the one who made it  the way it was right? And something I want people to learn is  actions really do speak louder than words. And that the majority of the work you do will be offline, will be off social media, it will be away from the eyes of others. And is what you do in the dark, it is what you do without the praise and without the accolades and the awards that matters. You know, that is the work [L: Mmhmm]. 

P: The work isn't reposting and tweeting and scrolling. And I'm guilty of doing this -- I'm guilty,  I'm guilty of having fooled myself into thinking for so long that “Oh well, I re-posted and that's sharing awareness and that’s better than doing nothing,” and it’s true, it's better than doing nothing. But it's not enough, it's not the end point. I guess one tangible action though is if you are going to repost at least sit with what you spread of the post and question how you have been a part of the problem too. ‘Cause I think also, something else that  I kind of ignored for a long time is how I could be a part of the issue too you know? 

L: Mmhmm,  well it's always, bigotry is for somebody else. 

P: Exactly,  and I really have to sit and unpack the ways in which I still benefitted, even if I was disadvantaged in other ways right? Like I think that you can be personally disadvantaged but be advantaged  by a system overall and I think that that's what I would encourage everyone to do.  Like there's an exercise, I forgot the name of the author, her name is like Peggy something?  [McIntosh] But it’s like “Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack of White Privilege”, and even though a lot those things apply or were geared towards white people, I could definitely relate to a lot of them too. Like, I grew up in a like, middle class, you know, suburban neighbourhood, and a lot of privileges I was afforded were very similar to the type of privileges that white people were afforded too right? 

P: So I think that it's kind of like taking stock of the things you -- the privilege you do have and how you can use them in a way that’s efficient. [L: Mmhmm]  And I guess another thing that I think is very actionable -- is sending money. [L: Yes] Money makes the world go ‘round. Unfortunately we live in a world where money dictates all right? So if you have money to spare, that in and of itself is also a privilege, that's also something that you have. You could be disadvantaged socially and politically in a lot of ways, but if you have cash -- if you have, you know a cash flow [L: Capital], -- capital, yes, one of the best ways to directly help is to take it and instead of spending it for yourself you give it to an organization or a person who needs it right? That's like-- before, I followed a really wonderful Black activist on Instagram her name is Shi Shi Rose, so that’s @shishi.rose,  I thought reposting was all good and fun, but she was the one that' said if you are an ally you put your money where your mouth is you know? You won't buy yourself the fifth bubble tea that you had this week and instead you will take that $20 or so, or I mean one boba doesn’t cost $20 but the accumulation of five or so bobas could equate to twenty bucks -- 

L: Eventually yes, the spending piles up. 

P: -- It does. So instead of treating yourself to a boba every day for a week, take those twenty bucks and donate it to an organization in your local area, that’s working to better the lives of Black people, of Indigenous people, of trans folks right? [L: Mmhmm] Take that money and put it in the hands of those who really are doing that work.

L:  And you know, another thing you can do is be aware of protests and marches that are going on in your community and go to them. Be aware of events that are being, you know, that are supposed to be about raising awareness, raising money -- go to them or donate to them [P: Right],  participate in some way in your local community. Because these vast systemic problems you can see them in your own life, and you can fight back against them in your own life in very local ways. And it's very easy to feel like “I'm powerless against these systems they’re so strong, what can I even do? Well, the start of the thing you can do is right there in your own community! Be the change you want to see in the world right there, and help other people see the change that they want as well. And also make sure to lift up the voices of people who have been ignored and that doesn't just mean retweeting, it also means donating money -- and if you know this person in person -- it means putting yourself in uncomfortable positions with people you know in order to defend them. when these people that you know inevitably engage in some sort of mean spiritedness or bigotry towards them. 

L: Real change doesn't have to necessarily be these big things that no one can really grasp or understand. It's not some things that will happen “One day, I promise” it starts with you! It starts with the people in your family, it starts with the people in your community and it starts with you and your friends and how you treat them, [transition music starts] and how you treat other people that you know and meet. 

[Transition music continues in the background]

L: Up next we’ll be posing questions for -- 

P: People who usually don't think about politics 

L: People who are somewhat aware but feel uncomfortable 

P: People who are politically aware but don't participate as much as they could 

L: And, people who consider themselves politically active

[Transition music ends]  

L: You know, for people who have never really thought about politics before, [P: Yeah]think about where does my food come from? [P: Mmm, that’s a great question] Where did my clothes come from? What is the history of my city? What is the history of my country? [P: Yeah] All of these you can make them more in-depth but you can also get more simple, easily accessible answers through Google. I think just doing that -- that base amount -- of okay,  what was my past like and what are my circumstances like, and how are these political?

P : That's great! I would say for people who are aware but are like, kind of uncomfortable when they confront these things,  my number one question is - why do you feel uncomfortable? [L: Mmhm] Like really sit with that. Why does politics make you uncomfortable? Is it because you were taught that politics is something inherently divisive? Is it because of your own beliefs that you might not be, you know, “woke” enough and you're scared to confront that part of yourself? Right, truly dig down as to the reasons why political conversations make you want to shut down, and don't shy away from the discomfort too. I would encourage you to sit in it and think on it and reflect. ‘Cause I think that a lot of people feel things but they don't question why they feel the way they do, right?. [L: Mmhmm] They kind of just either assess whether the emotion is good or bad, and they repress it or allow it to be expressed, but they don't think “Okay, but why am I feeling this way?

L: Yeah, really I think that's a great one. Really interrogate that discomfort. And also you said it earlier well, but discomfort isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's not necessarily wrong because you know, it is uncomfortable to look at things truthfully, but it needs to be done. Just like pulling off the Band-Aid -- it hurts but the Band-Aid does have to come off at some point. And if you just kind of leave it there, festering and getting ugly and getting all of this dirt and gunk in it, you'll be stuck with an ugly piece of cloth on your leg through the last of your life. And more and more of them will accumulate as you get more and more scratches. And that is exactly what happens if you keep avoiding political discussions. All of a sudden you may not be able to see it, but as people look at you they will see all of these ugly gunk filled Band-Aids staining your body. 

P: Yeah, and the only way to really heal is to let the wound be out in the open, right? Like of course for some period of time you need to close it ‘cause so that the bleeding is stopped right? 

L: There's a reason we have Band-Aids. Every now and then people have compassion fatigue [P: Right] They get tired, they’re in too-extremely-busy-a-place to really truly engage with the world around them. Uhm- 

P: Right, as you said, that's not a permanent way of being. [L: Exactly]. And at some point you have to let the new skin grow over [L: Mmhmm] you have to let its scab and it’s going to look ugly of course, but once it scabs over and it has stopped bleeding, you know, you can continue to treat it and for it. If you neglect it will only get worse, as you say, so I think that's a really good way of putting it. 

[Transition swoosh sound] 

P: A question for people who are somewhat aware but are not consistently acting or participating. Okay so my question to you would be - what have I been meaning to do but have been putting off?  What have I put on my list of things I told myself I would do in order to participate more, and why was I putting it off? What were my reasons for putting it off right? Like was it because I was fatigued with compassion, or was it because I thought that I had done enough right? Like I think that for people who are somewhat aware it’s always good to of course,  educate yourself more. Maybe another question is - what don’t I know? [L: Mmhmm]  What do I feel like I don't know enough about. And there's so many resources out there that can deepen your knowledge of,  but if you are already kind of aware and are sitting in that discomfort then I think that’s like a really great step already [L: Yeah]. 

L: Yeah, you know clap yourself on the back [P laughs]. However, for people who are not actively participating in political life then another thing is - how can I do that? [P: Right]. What are some ways I can affect change? And although we kind of went over that earlier, just really think about -  What are the problems in my community -- not the world, not my country, not my city, -- my community -- [P: A hundred percent] think about what are the problems around me. And also how can I put my politics into practice in my everyday life with people I speak to, because you know everyone can make a tweet or make a nice thread, that is something that anyone can do. But it takes real courage to stand up to the people in your life and really stand up for your ideals. 

L: It takes real courage to say, “No I think you're wrong about this racist thing that you were saying I think, you're wrong about this misogynistic thing that you were saying, I think you're wrong about this classist thing that you're saying, I think that these people are human too. I think that these people have knowledge, and history, and voices that we need to listen to.” And it's not just good enough to say “You know, we'll agree to disagree” No! Push back. And you can. Everyone has someone in their life that they can say “No I think you're wrong and here's why.”  And you don't have to rage at them, you don't have to yell at them, you don't have to cut them off. But you still can disagree.  

P: I a hundred percent agree.  I think another thing I want to spotlight is a video I saw from an activist named Sonya Renee Taylor. She's also on Instagram, @sonyareneetaylor. Again, we will try and link it out, but if you look her up she's quite active and I'm sure you'll find her. But she had a very important video on her Instagram about how it's also not enough to push back. It's also, you know, -- you should question why they even feel comfortable saying it in the first place right? [L: Yes]. Questions like - why do you think you have the authority to speak on other people's lived experiences? Why do you think you have the power to dictate what is and isn't reality for people who don't look like you right? 

P: ‘Cause I think oftentimes a lot of the racist and misogynistic comments come from a place of “oh well it's ‘cause I saw it”. And I’ll be like okay you saw that, but did you live that? Like are you a person of colour? Are you Black? Are you a woman? Are you a trans person? Like can you directly speak to these experiences? Because I also think it challenges them on the kind of misguided belief that they have the authority to speak on other people's lived experiences. ‘Cause like they don’t right? They absolutely don’t. 

L: Although, I will say that the right wing response to that is usually “But look at this token.” Look at Candace Owens, look at Blaire White, look at woman-who-agrees-with-me, look at trans-person-who-agrees-with-me [P: Sure] Look at Black-person-who-agrees-with-me. Better --

P: Yeah I think that’s a response but you can also just tell them that not all Black people think the same right?

L: Exactly and I think that that will be their response too, they’ll say “Well look, you know, I agree with the conservative Black community, [P: Right]. I agree with the Black people who are pushing against the liberal agenda, I agree with people who have been silenced by leftists.” And I’ll say that’s one aspect of the Black community, have you engaged with others? Because you say you don't believe that all Black voices sound the same, but what I'm hearing from you or a series of Black voices that all sound like yours. 

P: Exactly there you go, there you go. That’s definitely how you counter that. And I think that's also a critique that could even be applied to leftists too right? [L: Oh sure, definitely]. I think there many times leftists, especially leftists who are white, or who aren’t Black or aren’t Indigenous tend to bypass the fact that many people within communities do have conservative ideas because of different influences growing up. Or like because of colonial policies and histories that affect people's way of thinking. I think that's actually needs more engagement and we can definitely talk about that in more detail. I think that’s super important to ask people who are somewhat aware but are not really consistently acting or participating in public life.Yes share that post, yes retweet but yeah,as you say -- confront the people in your everyday life. 

[Transition swoosh] 

L: What people who are very politically active in their life can do. [P: Yeah] I guess one thing you could say is uhm, Do you think what you have been doing in terms of activism has worked so far? Do you see any change in your community? [P: Great questions], do you see any change in the people around you, do you see any change in yourself? And if you see a stagnation, maybe it's time to interrogate what you have been doing. You have suffered for ideals -- but have you noticed any change in your community?

P: Yes very good questions. Another thing to ask yourself - do you take the knowledge that you gain from other activists who have been doing this work longer than you for granted? Do you espouse their work and ideas without crediting them, [L: Mm] and do you place yourself as an expert on this topic? Because I think that it's very easy to get intoxicated when you first start becoming very politically active and people are praising you and lauding you. And it’s so easy to internalize that and take that as a sign that you are now the expert. You are not. 

L : [sarcastically] Oh you know, I’m so woke, [P: Exactly] Ah, everyone I know is just giving meall this praise, I really must have it all figured out [P: Exactly], and that attitude is not necessarily a very good one because it stops you from being able to listen to the voices of people who might have problems with what you've been saying all or the way you’ve been phrasing them. [P: Exactly!] Or the way you’ve been taking their struggles and taking their ideas and turning it all about your “personal brand”. 

P: Exactly, and I think that there’s a time and place to claim expertise. For example, for me I claim expertise when I talk about being a bisexual woman, ‘cause I am a bisexual woman. [Lapis: Mmhm] I claim expertise when I talk about being a Vietnamese first generation immigrant because those are the things I personally have experienced. Those are the things that I know I can claim expertise to some extent  that because that's something I've lived, right? When I talk about Black Lives Matter, when I talk about Idle No More -- when I talked about Black issues, Indigenous issues -- I say Black issues. I say Indigenous issues, ‘cause even though I'm a racialized person, it is not the same struggle, and I never went to claim expertise on something that was taught to me right? Like all these ideas I have for like Black Liberation Indigenous Liberation I didn’t think up of them! They didn't come from me, right I read them. [L: Mmhmm].  I saw them somewhere. 

L: Phuong is not the prophet of Black Liberation. 

P: [sarcastically] Ooh who would have known? A Black person-- A non-Black person is not an expert on Black issues [L laughs] like, I didn't think that  was a revelation to say. [L: Plot twiste] But -- I think that’s one of the most important questions I’ve learned is -- do you take for granted your own expertise and do you place yourself as an expert? Hold yourself accountable when other people call you in, right?. Or even when people don’t gently call you in. 

L: It can be very difficult to listen to people who are being assholes online, and on social media [P: Exactly yeah] -- and it can be tempting just to be like “You’re an asshole, I'm going to ignore you” [P: Right] -- and every now and the asshole will be wrong. But when somebody criticizes you, it’s still good to take a moment to say “Hmm. Why did they criticize me? What were criticisms exactly, and how can I act to better myself?”  

P: Yes, and where are they coming from? [L: Mmhmm] Like, what is their perspective, and where they coming from, and how can I respond to this in a way that acknowledges it? That acknowledges my imperfection and the idea that I am constantly learning? That's what I want to end it on -- that note -- [Theme music starts to play]  the fact that we are constantly learning still. 

[Theme music plays in background]

L: Thank you for joining us for this episode of The Rising Roses.

P: In the next episode of The Rising Roses…

P: For me, it was -- I didn’t necessarily know what I was talking about. It just sounded good, it just made me sound like a good person. Everyone else around me was doing it… 

L: Don’t listen to other people’s voices. Listen to what you think of other people. Listen to your judgments. And that is a really unhealthy way to look at the world. And thanks to you, and the conversations I had with other people, I realized that being judgemental was something that didn’t help other people and it didn’t help me either. 

[Theme music continues to play] 

P: Be sure to check out our website, www.therisingroses.ca for show notes and other resources. 

L: This episode was produced and edited by Vu Hai Nguyen

P: The theme music was composed by Oscar Abley 

L: All other sounds are from zapslap.com 

L: Cover art was designed by Bridjet Lee

P: Until next time! 

[Theme music fades out] 

[Recording beep]

P: Mmhmm yeah. 

L: As long as we don’t go full on YouTuber like “What’s up guys, it’s yer boi” 

[Both and Phuong and Lapis burst out laughing]